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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 19 post(s)
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.22 17:38:00 - [1] Originally by: Mohenna They need double webs on cruisers to get near full damage... Learn to missiles. Sig radius/explo radius also comes into equation. And vs cruisers rockets will deal full damage most of the time (even if cruiser uses AB). If there is problem with rocket explo velocity/radius then its vs same ship class. What i mean: they suck at taking out frigs and are anti-frig weapon.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.23 12:25:00 - [2] Originally by: Mohenna Edited by: Mohenna on 22/02/2009 23:15:09 Edited by: Mohenna on 22/02/2009 23:13:54 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Learn to Please, I asked no trolling. If you want to be constructive check this very informative thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280 where you can find the correct formula. That thread is generic, I'd like this one to be only about missiles. A fast cruiser can lower even rocket damage, with speed, no matter how bigger its sig radius is than the missile's explosion range. And with frigates it becomes sad. From which the lollabity of Khanid ships, to say one. Can something be done about this? And im not trolling here. You clearly dont understand how that formula works. If you dont, open the XLS file (in thread you linked) and check graphs. The rocket graph clearly shows that even versus 2km/s target (thats one VERY fast cruiser) you deal 40% damage if his sig radius is 70. If he burns MWD cruiser sig radius gets to around 600-700 thus gets almost full or full damage (cba to extrapolate or count it from equation right now; sitting at work ;p). When it comes to AB cruisers you are looking at around 400m/s speeds with sig of 120+. On said graph it easily shows that vs 400m/s target you get 100% damage when its sig hits around 65m. As cruisers are twice this size they get hit for full damage. 800m/s cruisers will be hit for around 90% damage (just did fast on-screen extrapolation due to lack of time). Only problem will be AB vaga which is quite fast. Counter? Same as always - web it. So to sum up: rockets hitting cruiser sized targets hit for full (or almost full) damage. Problems start at the point i stated earlier: when you are engaging frigs. AB ceptor is virtually immune to rocket fire (30% damage) and even after getting webbed it bumps up to 40-45% damage. Add poor rocket base damage and you end up with anti-frig system which cant kill frigs.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.23 15:50:00 - [3] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/02/2009 15:55:15 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/02/2009 15:53:11 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/02/2009 15:51:38 Where did you get 80 sig from? Most cruisers start at 110+ (vaga is 115). 80 is destroyer size. With 115 sig you get 718m/s. EDIT: actually i think vaga is smallest one (deimos 160 O_o thats one fat cow) EDIT2: and like i said before: rockets do suck, but not vs cruisers (vs cruisers they are quite decent actually from small weapons). They suck vs frigs on level that torps suck vs cruisers.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.23 16:31:00 - [4] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs One a seperate not, rocket do need a base damge boost. As a close range wepaon the pretty much suck. Yup. And not 5% boost but sth around 20-25%.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.02.26 14:48:00 - [5] Originally by: Mohenna Originally by: Deva Blackfire Where did you get 80 sig from? I see no 80? I used 125, 85 is the rocket explosion speed. Imho the rocket is good as it is, in terms of raw damage. But the explosion speed is so wrong that the whole leaves an impression of uselessness. And this is where you are quite wrong. Ignoring the explosion velocity part (which should be fixed too) here is short list of what is wrong with rockets: - their DPS sucks: rocket launcher WITH 25% damage bonus (malediction, vengeance etc) deals as much damage as unbonused 200mm autocannon while its fitting is MUCH worse - "but they have range" you will say - yes sure they "theoretically" can reach up to 10km. Remove 2km for "speed up" and you get 8km. Remove 2-4km from range if you are kiting enemy (running from him) - because rockets are fired IN FRONT of ship and then they turn back - and you get 4-6km effective range. Now if target its not webbed and orbits - rocket will never hit. Missile agility is just buggered. - they are anti-frig weapon which cant hit frigs - they are just too slow. Even heavy missiles are up to 3x faster than rockets. Result: needs velocity fixed (even at cost of dropping flight time). But if we include bad agility and wrong launch vector of missiles (especially visible on vengeance) then if we increase velocity 2x and decrease flight speed 2x rockets will just vanish before they even start tracking target. Result? Whole "missile launch" mechanics should be looked at. I could go on but dont have time nor i cba to do so. I bug reported the issues ages ago, was accepted waiting for fix. Quote: The cruiser talk is sending this thread astray, it was only to say how wrong the explosion speed is. Imho explosion speed should be like a fast AB frigate webbed once. I really think it's just a matter of an error, like dropping a 2 from 285. With this one i can agree. Rockets vs ab frig = lolz. It just doesnt work, even if frig is webbed.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.28 10:24:00 - [6] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/04/2009 10:25:39 Originally by: Mohenna Yep not only they accelerate. They appear to start their motion like the bombs, moving towards where the ship is facing. They should at least move towards the target... This for rockets makes quite a difference. The damage is quite low, but the explosion speed is terrible for something that should frag drones like eggs. This. Also: rockets change dirtection (while following target) each second. This means that target which turns fast will not be hit at all (they have like 2 direction changes and are gone). Tested on close range orbit ceptor (think he was 500m orbit, landed at 3,5km from me doing around 2km/s) - with skills 5/5/dictors 4 (heretic, thus additional 40% to rocket velocity) he was hit 3 times out of around 100 rockets fired.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.28 13:37:00 - [7] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/04/2009 13:47:06 Normal ammo not javelins (so ~14km range). Still its mostly due to their agility. Maxskill rocket has 3 seconds flight time: 0s - launch 1s - missile flies forward (3-4km dependant on velocity skill and ship) 2s - missile turns towards target. If target is behind you missile will be more-less near you at this point 3s - missile moves 3-4km from your position towards enemy. Effective range (for enemy "behind" you): 3-4km. If hes on the side it is around 5-6km. And this is IGNORING the fact that enemy might be moving thus range gets reduced further. So pretty much we land inside blaster/ac range with poorest DPS of all weapons in game. Note to above: javelins might help a bit but not much. Its still 1 second forward, 1 second back so you always lose 1/3 of range on 1st second. Easy to see on vengeance while running from NPCs (they follow). Your range is not 15km but some pathetic 8km. EVEN tho enemy follows you = gets closer (into incoming missile). Fixes? 1. fix launch vector so rocket start following target as soon as its launched instead of moving forward 2. if (1) is not possible add another second to their flight time and improve range. Yes it might be even 15-20km on maxskilled (no ship bonus) rocket, effective range will be cut almost in half anyways. Speed is needed to catch up to ceptors (lol @ rocket being anti-ceptor weapon - like on heretic) 3. increase rocket DPS. If no range increase is given make em even 25-40% stronger. If range boost is given (as per 2) it might be less but they still need damage boost (15-25% in this case i guess). Reason about damage boost? Even after damage increase rockets still suffer HEAVILY from new missile damage formula up to the point where ceptor moving WITHOUT speed mods (just plain chassis speed) can mitigate up to 40% of DPS (IIRC, correct me on this one if its more/less, i cba to find missile damage formula right now). Point (3) can be changed depending on other rocket stats (like explo velocity etc). Its obvious that 25-40% damage boost with changes to explo velocity/radius so there is no negation from speed might be way too much, so it has to be balanced a bit. It was just general idea(s) for fix. Also its worth to consider what was said earlier (forgot who posted it). Make rockets into short burst VERY heavy DPS weapons. Give them 300dps but reduce their clip amount so after reloads its ~120-140dps on for example malediction (so clip would have to be emptied in 10 seconds?). But this weapon type change should be done AFTER points 1-3 were taken into account. EDIT: oh yea i almost forgot. ROCKET LAUNCHER FITTING REQUIREMENTS. Reduce them please. Or give more CPU/grid to heretic. After 6x launcher barely anything fits to this ship...
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.28 15:59:00 - [8] Do you have emotional problems? All your posts are in caps.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.28 20:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Pohbis There's is not a single missile-boat, were people wouldn't switch to the turrect equivilant in a heartbeat if they were given the choice. That alone speaks volumes about how subpar missiles are. Cerb.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.29 03:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Great Artista Edited by: Great Artista on 29/04/2009 02:02:19 Changing the rocket bonus on vengeance to 10% (totaling to effective 6 launchers) and malediction to 15% (totaling to effective 5.25 launchers) per level, accompanied by making the rockets able to hit ABing frigates WITHOUT WEB ASSISTANCE for full damage should do it. MWD assisted frigs would still go faster than the rockets, but getting caught by scrambler would be devastating. Seems balanced, no? Heretic, flycatcher, hawk, rocket crow, eris (partially) cant agree with above. you forgot about em. But yeh hitting frigs for full damage (even non-AB ceptors) would be good start. And to the guy from previous page: all missiles are immune to defenders if fired from short range at target. I think its about 2-3 seconds flight time (times velocity = range) that is enough to evade defenders. So 10km/s heavy missile from cerb will evade defender if fired from 20-30km (cant check now but a while ago i could evade defenders even from 40km ;p but those were NPC ones).
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.05.27 11:41:00 - [11] and 4 launchers... (malediction problem in this case)
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.05.30 11:47:00 - [12] Umm... are blasters fleet weapons? Autocannos? Lasers? Or maybe standard missiles? Or heavies? Heck, even HAMs. All those systems work well with point(normal, not scram)+web on target. Rockets dont work well even when you web another frig.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.06.04 11:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Originally by: Deva Blackfire Umm... are blasters fleet weapons? Autocannos? Lasers? Or maybe standard missiles? Or heavies? Heck, even HAMs. All those systems work well with point(normal, not scram)+web on target. Rockets dont work well even when you web another frig. Double web vs. AB-ing frigates. I mean that the explosion speed should be more or less the speed of an AB-ing frigate minus twice the effect of a web, needing a fleetmate (two in case of amarr). In this sense they should be considered fleet weapons. Imho. My point is: there is absolutely no small weapon that needs 1 bar 2 teammates to be effective. Its just stupid idea IMO. You already pay heavily in range (for lulz damage) for the weapon to be dependable on others. Its almost like saying that you need mega+2 more megas to start hitting another battleship. Weapon should be effective vs target of its own size without help of others (with the exception of highly specialised ships like HAMs vs vaga where vaga is specialised to speedtank and needs to be webbed).
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.06.04 23:14:00 - [14] Idea is decent but tbh id prefer just smaller damage boost + some fixes so they actually work. As for vs cruisers. Even if you give em 100% damage boost 2 small drones will kill you before you kill decently tanked cruiser. So rockets should be viable vs small drones and forcing em to work as "fleet weapon" you described, well, they wont kill small drones anymore (not like they do it now...)
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.06.05 01:14:00 - [15] Well rockets are (should be) primarily used by: vengeance, malediction, heretic and partially hawk and crow. All of em want to kill light drones as fast as possible using their weapon system. Result: rockets should (and need) to be able to kill drones which are max 1x webbed (would be better if they could kill nonwebbed, orbitting drones).
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.10.08 21:45:00 - [16] I think almost everything got changed/fixed already from the list players were creating a while ago. yet rockets which were quite high on it are still CRAP.
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.10.21 11:40:00 - [17] So when will i be able to compete against other ships of same class using rockets?
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.02 10:11:00 - [18] Originally by: Tagami Wasp I was thinking AC level of damage actually and an explosion velocity that will let the Crow go after Taranises and be on par (if flown by a good pilot). If you go against a Taranis in a crow with roflkets, he will laugh in your face and proceed to shred you. I think taranis is wrong comparison. As taranis pilot i can happily engage any other ceptor and laugh in their face while i shred them. But yeah id love to have ship (malediction/heretic) comparable in pewpew ability to others in their class.
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.14 12:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington The resulting damage figures may appear below average on paper but consistancy of their hits will even it out in practice. In theory. The fast orbiting ships problem persists... With 226 explo velocity and web+scram on frigate only AB ceptors would be a big problem (and boosted AB AFs). If s1 has missile explo velocity/radius vs target velocity/radius spreadsheets can he run some numbers? Im just interested in % dps reduction against MWD ceptor, webbed MWD ceptor, AB ceptor, webbed AB ceptor and base speed (both webbed and not).
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.14 13:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Deva Blackfire (and boosted AB AFs). This buff is no longer happening. Thank God. It was postponed, so not happening now. It "might" happen later (or not at all). So just covering all bases :)
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2009.12.31 00:43:00 - [21] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 30/12/2009 12:22:48 Do flares boost it to even reasonable levels? Edit: hmm, 193 with 3 of them. Ugh. That's effectively 386m/s for a 40m sig radius. That's actually quite decent. Yeah. All those kestrel pilots just rejoiced. On the other hand malediction, vengeance, heretic and hawk pilots are still stuck with 2 flares max. And with pathetic DPS to add to the insult :) Yes 3x flares would work decently IF it wasnt for other rocket issues (namely low range due to following target and pathetic DPS). And ofc when you put 2x flare (t2 hull) to actually do some decent damage other guy just spams damage rigs and gets handy 20% on top of his current DPS. Which again leaves you behind :X
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.01 12:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Lady Australia i have faith that with abathur active again we will see some of the much needed changes happening sooner rather than later. at the very very least he is actively participating in the forum threads, CCP seemed to lose the bookmark to the eve forums for a long time!!! I would stop being stupid and sucking up to one dev if i were you tbfh. FYI: one person doesnt make all the developement decisions. There is always one dev who communicates with players be it seleene, tuxford or others before him.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.01 22:55:00 - [23] Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Deva Blackfire FYI: one person doesnt make all the developement decisions. He does if that person happens to be CCP Nozh. Nope it does not. Unless you believe in world conspiracy theory, aliens controlling governments or other ****e. If yes, then be my guest tho usually that kind of people land in special places reserved for them.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.08 21:48:00 - [24] So... SiSiPi. You boosted Titans (300ish in EVE), Motherships (2000?), Vindicator (1000?). And Rockets which can be used by tens thousand ships (maleds, vengs, heretics, hawks, crows and supplementary weapon systems on many other frig sized hulls) are still crap. Maybe we should start dropping random propositions like "boost rocked damage by 200% and their range to 40km" in hopes we get at least 1/4 of it? Seriously fix them. Rockets have been broken much longer than all those ships above and need WAY more help yet they are being ignored.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.08 22:57:00 - [25] If you bothered as much to check the topic for blue bar posts as you did to make your uninventive post you would know that CCP already acknowledged the issue. And yeah bumping the thread and reminding them about the issue is the fastest way to get stuff done as been proven by multiple whine-threads made in the past (minmatar threads, projectile ones, missiles, carriers, motherships, titans, falcon - you name it). Quote: This is exactly why it hasn't happened yet. bosting the vindi will have just about zero impact on the game as a whole and only the balance of one ship required looking into, while boosting rockets will have a major impact on an entire ship size class and require looking at every single ship that uses them. And titan/mom numbers in game may be relatively low, but their impact (well impact is still only "potential" for mom/sc) on 0.0 warfare is huge. Way to contradict yourself. Vindi was fixed because it has low impact on game, rockets have huge impact. Titans were fixed because they had huge impact on game, rockets werent fixed because...they have huge impact? Uh? Also fixing vindi took pretty much the same amount of time it would take to at least patch rockets to "not-crippled" level. Just changing few numbers in game (in case of vindi its ship bonus from 5 to 7,5, in case of rockets its just tad higher explosion velocity).
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.09 05:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 09/01/2010 00:53:08 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington This, x1000. They have whole complex of a problems, not just this one, and hopefully ccp guys prepare af/rocket changes which will really eliminate all of them. Tuning only explosion speed is just stupid. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1005679&page=2#49 You mean like the problem i described around year ago in this thread? Or maybe same problem i described in bug reports? Or other rocket thread(s) that spawned over a year ago? Yeh i prolly know most/all of those (malediction and heretic PVP pilot here + veng for PVE lulz). Actually when i get some time i might sum them up again.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.09 17:28:00 - [27] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 09/01/2010 17:31:19 Originally by: Faffywaffy A taranis will not be doing full damage against a cruiser. To do full damage, it has to hold still at point-blank range, at which point it will get torn up by drones and will take damage from guns/missiles. You would have to kill drones first while MWDing at full speed, and then slow down to make your own guns track decently (but not enough that the opponent cruiser can track you). This doesn't work, though, if you're being shot at with missiles. With a rocket crow, I just set orbit to 500m and forget about it. Have you ever flown taranis? Or you are EFTing it? Coz like ya know... it kills small drone in 2 salvos so more often than not your enemy will not even manage to recall it before drone dies (and in reality you dont even need to web those drones - tracking is awesome on ranis). Try doing this with malediction or actually any other rocket based ship. O yeah - you cant because you dont damage drones. Also at 500m orbit (manual) i doubt any guns can hit you. Only ones which are close are new 2x TE + medium range ammo 180mm dual ac's on vaga. Quote: It makes the claim that they suck worth examining. Upon examination (and experimentation, as opposed to pure EFT fighting), however, rockets are fine. Fighting idiot fit ships doesnt count as good "examination" tbh. Fact is that rockets deal full damage to webbed + scrammed (non-ab) ceptors. Yet not all rocket ships can use 2 mids for tackle ya know? Try flying heretic and tell me how awesome it is(oh yea - for some people heretic is only bubbler ship - why explo velocity bonus for rockets then?). And even if you exclude this one from the list you still have lolworthy DPS. You cant tell me your 60 or 80dps (even if fully applied) will be always more than taranis or sader DPS on target. Sader can easily bring 100dps at any target in range, ranis does your dps (60 - so without BCU) using drones alone. And thats in ceptor vs ceptor "duels". Enter world of any larger ship than ceptor and your theorycraft goes awry - not only any non-rocket equipped ship will deal more damage but they wont have huge issues dealing it either (the closer you are to target the safer it is). Btw - claw example was stupid anyways. 2 slot combat ceptor that has optimal of 1,5km is just lolworthy and its not surprising its one of worst ceptors out there. EDIT: and back to heretic. I can kill any ceptor in it without issues. But then so can any other interdictor and they do it even faster (sabre due to stupidly high DPS, so does Eris, Catcher due to enough mids to actually fit full tackle). And rocket veng is just **** btw - ACs all the way. Plus you still didnt respond to fitting issues of rocket launchers. 17cpu and 4 grid for a gun that deals less damage than 150mm ac (6/2 fit).
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.10 16:30:00 - [28] Yet Duchess is right. I know some people just dont see difference between balanced/better and imba/pwn (yeh im looking mostly at Bellum here... but i guess thats not an exception). Rockets hitting hull = can full of worms. And its not like you can balance it - more rocket ships = stuff dying faster. To a point where kessy swarm will be able to instapop few battleships before they get even locked.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.11 20:52:00 - [29] Clap, clap. You killed 4 horribad fit crusaders. Want a lolipop? Even kestrel could do this btw against those fits. But then you someday end up fighting against competetive pilot who actually has a clue and you see how badly your ship is outclassed.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 01:22:00 - [30] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/01/2010 01:35:55 I still have no idea what you are trying to prove. If you try to prove that rockets are working fine you already failed by assuming that anti frigate weapon system (and it is anti-frig system as its primary weapon system for frig-hunter interdictor: heretic) is ok IF it engages webbed and scrambled target. Weapon system should be able to damage its favoured target without using 2 additional modules to circumvent its flaws. Any other frig sized weapon system can be made useful by proper positioning and managing transversal, be it lasers, blasters, acs or even artilery. Yet rockets fail in this case as they are totally useless as long as your target is ... moving. So here we go - 1st flaw. But as im talking about speed lets try AB frigates. Oh yes, all other frig weapon systems can damage those by keeping their respective transversal (radial) on par with their weapon tracking. Only piloting skill. What can rocket user do? Cry because without web (or even 2 webs - as single webbed target gets quite nice damage reduction in ~40% range) he is useless. Another flaw which came out after CCP wanted to give AB bonus to AFs. Lets go forward. Engaging larger ships (or even larger frigate sized hulls like bombers/EAS). Rockets compared to other weapon systems lack DPS. Bonused (malediction) rocket launcher deals 18/20/22dps (normal, CN, rage rockets) wheras even stupid gatling pulse laser (which can work in same range bracket) deals 21-26 dps (scorch-AN multi range). So 3rd and easily visible flaw - low dps. Next lets talk about engaging light drones. Or should i just ignore this part and just say light drones are almost invulnerable to this weapon system wheras even small arti can kill them? Ofc the issue doesnt exist only on explo velocity level. In this case you often land in rocket velocity issue: maxskilled rockets fly around 3km/s where most (all?) light drones can outrun them and be invulnerable. Ofc web somewhat reduces the issue. But again: you are saying that weapon system is ok IF you use additional modules to make it work. That makes it 4. Fifth issue: rocket range. If you kite enemies at around 10km mark you already know that rockets dont hit unless enemy is following you. There is additional issue you might not be aware of: some ships STILL fire rockets in front of them so kiting is basically impossible (or possible at reduced ranges). Try heretic for example. Launching rocket from ship forces the missile to move FORWARD from the ship and in case of kiting - you fire it AWAY from enemy just to wait for it to turn back towards its target. As a result you get reduced range. The issue existed (from rocket ships i flown) on vengeance and heretic. Not 100% sure if it was on malediction, cant remember now. Anyho it does exist and its also a major flawh for weapon that shows theoretical range of 10km (8-9 with speed up) and you ending up with ~6km. Hmmm what else. Ahhhh fitting issues. Rocket launchers are short ranged weapon system that eats more cpu than any other frig weapon system (bar medium pulse-beam laser which in reality are destroyer sized mods as they barely fit on any frig maybe save for grid-heavy retribution). CPU heavy weapon system mounted on ships with quite low CPU amount (and again: especially visible on heretic) is not a good idea. But in this case it might be enough to tweak heretic itself. Anyways thats a barrage for you. And stop saying that rockets are ok because when you use 2 more modules they can actually kill stuff. Sure in this case i can kill frigs with stealth bomber if i use webs and multiple-ecm mods. Still it doesnt make torps anti-frigate weapon system just because it is possible to do so. EDIT: also its possible i missed one or two more points, its late and i really cba to dig thru older threads atm.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 02:10:00 - [31] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/01/2010 02:14:31 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/01/2010 02:10:25 Originally by: Faffywaffy So your argument is that rockets are bad because their damage is reduced by the target's speed? Well, guess what, all missiles behave the way (and drones too). So rockets are bad because they are not turrets? Im quite sure i said about engaging your own sized enemy: using rockets (frig weapon) to kill frigs. Im quite ok with engaging cruisers using HAMs or heavies even without additional webs on their face. Same i can use torps vs battleships without heavy webbing - they work ok. Only rockets have gimped explosion velocity compared to their preferred target. Quote: Yes, dps is not very high. Rockets would be amazingly overpowered if they did the same damage as lasers at the same range. I believe I've already explained the advantages of missiles. Your previous quote: Quote: A rocket ship can control range and transversal to avoid almost all of my dps while dealing 100% of its own, what can the turret user do? For example he can control HIS range and HIS transversal to negate your advantages and actually start hitting? And then absolute velocity gimmick means he is hitting you for full (or almost full) damage yet you are always cut the set % (+- a little as he manouvres). You know you arent the only pilot in eve who can actually change ship facing during combat. Quote: Let me try and drill this into you again. For turrets, relative velocity (and position) are used to reduce dps. For missiles absolute velocity is used to reduce dps. In some situations, you can control one better than the other. Therefore in some situations turrets are better, and in others, missiles are better. Im quite sure that at some point (AB frig) relative velocity will also translate onto absolute velocity wheras it wont work the other way. Thus you can reduce relative velocity issue by positioning and you can not reduce the absolute velocity unless you use additional module(s). Quote: How is your piloting skill going to help you when you are scrammed and webbed and orbited at 1.5 of your tracking speed? Fit a web. I will give you that the Heretic is broken, but from that to broken rockets is a huge leap. Again: fitting additional module just to make weapon system work doesnt make it not-broken. So you again prove my point: you absolutely need web to actually kill something = broken weapon system. Quote: Originally by: Deva Blackfire And stop saying that rockets are ok because when you use 2 more modules they can actually kill stuff. You say that as if a scram and a web are not standard gear on frigates but some magical extra modules that are only useful to make rockets hit. Doesnt matter. If i wanted to go NPCing with rockets id prefer to see them damage NPCs without me needing to web (or double web) them. I dont need to web cruiser enemy to kill it with cruiser missile system. I dont need to web BS enemy to kill it with BS weapon system. Yet i need to use web on ship that has least midslots from all classes (frig) to actually damage other frig. And yes - you ASSUME that every frig uses MWD, web, scram. You know why? Because dual-prop malediction will not work because of... broken weapon system. If rockets werent broken you could go dual prop. If rockets werent broken you could go dual tackle (disrupt+scram). So paraphrasing your own words: your argument is that rockets are fine because when you use 2 additional modules you can actually damage your target. And like i said above: in this way i can say everything which is not working is ok. Why people are saying blasters are bad? Use 2-3 webs, AB and MWD and you can get close to enemy and kill it. Same logic, different problem.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 13:41:00 - [32] Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Faffywaffy maxed out rocket guy stuff I'm agreeing with Deva, rockets are ***ed! You should not have* to have perfect skills with a weapon and be in the perfect circumstance in order for a weapon to be decent. Rockets need to be reworked from the ground up. They fill no role what so ever in their current form. Its not even issue of having perfect skills. Surprisingly enough Deva has maxed missile skills too (at least for HAMs and rockets - everything 5 including spec). Again sayin same thing: having to depend on another module or two for weapon to be useful is stupid. Its almost like the idea of using target painters on hostile dreads for your phoenix to deal max damage. Lol. Pretty much web is the AB counter. All missile system (except rockets) work without web. You need one when enemy uses AB to counter his missile evasion velocity. In case of rockets you need TWO webs to counter AB - one for normal speed and another for AB velocity gain.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.12 23:49:00 - [33] Originally by: Braitai Originally by: Faffywaffy So your argument is that rockets are bad because their damage is reduced by the target's speed? Well, guess what, all missiles behave the way (and drones too). So rockets are bad because they are not turrets? This problem only really applies to frigate sized missiles since bigger ships rarely use AB's. As I said in the other thread, the fact that an AB reduces missile dps by such a HUGE amount is most definitely a problem. Also, RE-drones, yes you can kill them if you're in tight orbit using a web, but what if you use a long point and are orbiting at 20km+ in a gang? Rockets can't touch drones in that situation. Dont yuou know that EVERY rocket ship uses MWD, web and scrambler? He said so so it must be true. Quote: Needing to double web a frig to get perfect damage is how it is supposed to be. The real issue is DPS. Most other weapons don't get very good hits on a non-webbed frig either, but they're more effective because of their higher DPS, not because of their superior tracking. Not really. You can get good hits in non-web vs non-web frig combat and you can get in single-web vs single-web frig combat. But if you go non-web turret frig vs non-web rocket frig rocket one will always (except rare idiot-pilot case) lose. Web is (and shouls be) counter for AB. And it works well in larger ships/missile systems. HAM, heavy missile, torp, cruise - all work well vs non-ABing ship. If ship uses AB all you need is 1x web to get damage back to its normal level. In case of frigs you need web to get NORMAL level and 2 webs to counter ABing frig. This IS broken. So its not how it was "supposed" to be. Well unless we give additional 2 mid slots to every rocket ship to fit 2 webs.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.13 13:56:00 - [34] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Let's get this spelled out: - Rockets getting reduced damage on fast targets = fine. - An explosion velocity slower than HAMs = NO excuse whatsoever. Never said its bad that they get reduced damage on fast target. And by fast target i assume it is the ship that is faster than any other ship in its cattegory (for example vaga getting reduced missile damage compared to other HACs, cynabal to cruisers or dramiel to frigs) OR ship using "speed tanking" modules like overdrives, nanos, ABs. Have absolutely no problem with ships using those getting less damage than non-fit ships. But the moment you engage clear frig hull and get reduced damage its just broken. And yeh the issue comes from rocket explo velocity so both are connected to each other.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.14 14:38:00 - [35] I think the whole missile agility issue could be easily fixed by doing just easy check: "if target is within velocity*time it is hit". I know it would make moving out of range (after missile was fired) impossible (it would still count as hit) but on the other hand it would remove issues with launch vector, missiles agility, targets faster than missiles etc.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.20 16:26:00 - [36] Im quite sure there are more important issues like adding drone mining bonus on moros and proteus or something similiar. Stop asking for long overdue fixes. /sarcasm
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.11 19:01:00 - [37] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Major Trant Words Feel free to test it yourself, it's fairly straightforward. This. Also i wonder isnt this about time CCP moved the thread to ships and modules? You know, this forums is for "ban xyz because he abc me on sisi".
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.11 19:54:00 - [38] Actually i will doublepost and make that guy look like a fool. It will make me feel better :) Originally by: Major Trant Missile / Rocket range is based on Flight Time x Speed. My HAM missiles (maxskill = ~20km from speed x time) dont hit over 17km. Torps on raven (~30km) dont hit at 27km. So what were you saying? Quote: Yet people in this thread and others talk about, initial speed up time and if kiting the enemy how the Missile / Rocket is launched forward and then has to turn back. Surely these factors are just graphics. Surely you tested this. Otherwise you wouldnt be posting not proven data, yes? Quote: I can't imagine the difficulties of trying to calculate the launch speed up time range loss and the relative direction the firing ship is travelling and the loss of range while the missile turns around. I can't believe any programmer would have attempted to make such calculations without thinking 'oh it would be logical for the missile turret to spin to face the enemy like a gun turret' and he just wouldn't bother with launch speed up time. I think you might want to fire ze missiels again. Or at least fire them once as it shows you never used them. Quote: Instead he would surely use something simple like Flight Time x Speed? Or maybe he wouldnt? Quote: Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even bother considering the distance and direction the target moved before the Missile / Rocket arrived, nevermind the curvature of the missile path as it followed the target. Instead just took a snapshot at the firing time - yes target is in range, checkbox, hit is assured. And your theory gets broken as soon as smartbombs/bomber bombs enter the game and start killing missiles. Or as soon as target moves out of range and your missile "misses". Ofc anyone who actually used missiles AT LEAST ONCE will know this. Quote: So if anyone has any official data on what the actual calcualations are please post, but if you are just sprouting off what seems logical based on observing a crappy graphic without considering the enormaty of the calculation, please don't. I really hope you will try to make fool of yourself again. It was kinda amusing.
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.16 11:35:00 - [39] Please make my rockets do boom not splat
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.02.17 13:21:00 - [40] Not really. Fixing suckrilege took over 2 years...
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.02.17 17:50:00 - [41] Originally by: Meeko Atari I think the Rocket Fix will happen the same time they boost Assault Frigs never? ;p
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.02.22 13:12:00 - [42] Originally by: Anah Karah HEY Has anyone noticed that rockets are still sht? HAPPY BIRTHDAY ROCKETS ARE STILL SHT THREAD \O/** Cheers for another year! /owait
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.03.10 16:53:00 - [43] Originally by: Nuke Skywalker light missiles have about 170m/s explosion speed, rockets have 85m/s. With skills and 3 tier 1 explosion speed rig, it is possible to get rocket explosion speed to about 200m/s. You need 3 rigs to make them work, but on the other hand, using light missiles, you rarely can fit even the 2 dmg rigs cuz of their high cpu and pg demands. I think rockets can be viable. Awesome! Owait... heretic 2 rigs. Malediction 2 rigs. Vengeance 2 rigs. Damn, still not viable.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.03.11 08:23:00 - [44] Originally by: Nuke Skywalker Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Nuke Skywalker light missiles have about 170m/s explosion speed, rockets have 85m/s. With skills and 3 tier 1 explosion speed rig, it is possible to get rocket explosion speed to about 200m/s. You need 3 rigs to make them work, but on the other hand, using light missiles, you rarely can fit even the 2 dmg rigs cuz of their high cpu and pg demands. I think rockets can be viable. Awesome! Owait... heretic 2 rigs. Malediction 2 rigs. Vengeance 2 rigs. Damn, still not viable. Well, Heretic gets 25% explosion speed bonus from skills. That is only 5% less than 3 rigs would give you. then fit 2 dmg rigs. Is the Heretic only viable rocket ship then? If you didnt understand sarcasm here is translation: Quote: To add to this: flare rigs shouldn't be a solution. Can you imagine the uproar there would be if any of the turret weapons needed 3 tracking rigs just to hit stuff their size? The idea of having to use flare rigs is a joke. I dont care if roflkets become viable after using 3 flare rigs + 4 webs. Put them on level of other small guns. Hell - put them on level of other MISSILES. All missiles need only scrambler to damage MWD targets - no weeb is needed. Web is just a counter for AB. In case of rockets not only web is mandatory (or flares, 3 of which give similiar results to web) but to engage AB ship you need 2 webs (or flares+web). Always one step behind.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.03.19 14:37:00 - [45] last i heard rockets STILL suck ... also logging onto forums sucks too. Yay for long character names.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.03.19 18:00:00 - [46] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/03/2010 18:01:02 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 19/03/2010 16:31:13 Ships fixed or significantly boosted by a simple rocket buff: (to varying extents, obviously) 3 launchers+: (Primary weapon) Hawk Vengeance Malediction Crow Kestrel Breacher (lol, yeah, I know...) Inquisitor Flycatcher Heretic Worm (easily the most lolworthy pirate frigate right now) Caldari Navy Hookbill Split weapons (half and half rockets/guns) Merlin Tristan Eris Extra launcher high slot (meh) Rifter Republic fleet Firetail Harpy Cormorant Thrasher Claw Stiletto Raptor Enyo Jaguar Wolf VINDICATOR Please change two numbers this expansion and make a dozen ships vastly more viable. You forgot dramiel.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.05 10:38:00 - [47] Its CCPs way of doing things. Quantum Rise (i think) - industry expansion that gave us WHOLE Orca to play with. Awesome! I wouldnt be surprised at all if PI got shafted and not deployed in Tyrannis. Not as if i care about PI in 1st place.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.10 22:24:00 - [48] Hi CCP. You forgot to fix rockets.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.14 09:34:00 - [49] Well CCP is fixing HUGE ISSUE WITH GAME right now. Deep safes. Stuff that is used more-less by same amount of people that fly vindicators. But rockets... naah, who cares about one of most widespread weapon system in game.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.15 07:52:00 - [50] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Oh now you've done it. They'll increase the capacity to 400 and walk away saying "job done". According to CCPs "fixing by small steps" it will be 10%. You will need to wait 1,5 year for next step. And why this doesnt surprise me at ALL? Remember - it took them over 2 years to fix sacrilege.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.20 13:03:00 - [51] Heretic - needs more fitting (mostly cpu but also some grid)
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.21 17:04:00 - [52] Originally by: Captain Muscles Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: HeliosGal Originally by: Darcon Kylote The Tyranis feature page is missing the info about the rocket fix, please update, thx. yes it seems ccp has forgotten to change the patch notes on the rocket fix You just don't understand, there's no way they could work it into Tyrannis. They're too busy making alienware stuff flash pretty colours when their shields get low. Why not implement both at once? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1303162 Because it takes manpower. You know someone has to stop playing with flashy keyboard lights and random vindicator buffs and actually fix what was broken for 1,5 year now. But as everyone is SO BUSY right now we wont get any fix soon. Sigh. Seriously i think ill give up on this...
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.22 18:07:00 - [53] Originally by: Captain Muscles I guess you either didn't check out the thread I linked, or I didn't get my point across very well in it. Oh well. So... did they fixed rockets today? Heh true i didnt read it :P my bad. But again - CCP would prolly add flashy lights and totally ignore the more imporant part due to lack of time ;p
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.26 20:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Krennel Darius Originally by: Captain Muscles Is today a good day to start training Rockets V? No, I do not believe it is. Sadly, I already trained it. Rocket spec 5 krew checking in o/
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.26 22:13:00 - [55] survey 5 too :X
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.28 07:43:00 - [56] Originally by: Allen Ramses Edited by: Allen Ramses on 28/04/2010 01:22:23 Originally by: Braitai Edited by: Braitai on 27/04/2010 23:54:20 Originally by: Allen Ramses And there are actually three numbers that need to be adjusted, none of which are explosion velocity.. Wut? sooo.. you'd keep explosion velocity the same? Would you adjust their radius instead Missile velocity doubled, flight time halved, and DPS increased by 50% (probably all in alpha). Explosion velocity is appropriate, damage output and usability is not. crap damage x1,5 is still crap damage. Dealing 20 or 30dps vs ABing frig doesnt really matter beause it is THAT low. So no, boosting DPS and not touching velocity wont do much. As was stated in this thread multiple times (and you did read the smart posts i hope) the biggest flaw of rockets is need to use 2x web to actually be able to DAMAGE AB frigs. Which is not in line with any other (larger) missile system in this game (which in fact require only 1 web to get decent DPS on AB target). Next: halving flight time on rockets would mean they would vanish before doing 1st turn towards target (or just after). Im rly not sure if CCP already fixed launch vector on some frigs (like vengeance) coz i havent used rockets for a long while now - but if they didnt you would ensure that those frigs would never actually hit their targets. At all. In this case rework of missile engine (physical) would be needed which is much larger problem than fixing 2 numbers in database. And prolly other problems which i cant remember at a whim (just woke up, brain not functioning at 100% yet).
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.28 21:06:00 - [57] Originally by: scunner funk Originally by: Deva Blackfire the biggest flaw of rockets is need to use 2x web to actually be able to DAMAGE AB frigs. Which is not in line with any other (larger) missile system in this game (which in fact require only 1 web to get decent DPS on AB target). Can anyone confirm/deny this? According to my spreadsheet which uses the formula Damage = Base_Damage MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)))* all missile types get a massive reduction in damage vs AB opponents. The spreadsheet was tested in game to be correct but that was some time ago so I'd be much obliged if anyone could point me towards any changes that have happened since quantum rise. Mere ya go. AB ishkur 888m/s, 39 sig. 53% damage reduction from rockets. 355,2m/s after getting webbed = 19% damage reduction. And ishkur isnt rly the fastest of them or the smallest. AB jag 905/34sig -> 57% reduction. 26% reduction after single web. AB dramiel 1798/32sig -> 72% reduction. After getting webbed 53% reduction. Stabber 918m/s 105 sig vs heavy missile (normal one): 70% reduction. After being webbed 47% reduction. Thorax: 543m/s 140 sig: 50% reduction. After being webbed: 11% reduction. Now lets look at DPS of each ship class. Rocket ships tend to deal around 80-100dps, their own ship class (gun frigs) usually go around 150-200 dps. So they start off with half of DPS already. Cruiser sized? Cerberus (sorry i dunno caracal off my head) does around 350-400dps in heavy missile setup wheras cruiser class does around 300-500dps. Tanks on all frigs or all cruisers are similiar. Result? While damage reduction from web or non-web are more-less the same (with sole exception of dramiel and ceptors which need 2 webs on them to actually get damaged by rockets and uber-fast cruisers like vaga or stabber which also need 2 webs) the DPS isnt - rockets compared to other ships in their class are far behind compared to heavies (long range ones!) vs others in their respective class. Another factor: midslots. Rocket ships usually have 3 mids thus its impossible to create anti-ceptor rocket ship because of lack of midslots (mwd, web, scrambler and... thats it). Cruisers have it tad easier due to having 4-5mids (sacri being 4mid one). So all in all - rockets are hurt in both departments. Rocket ships both lack comparable DPS to heavy missile counterparts (and HMLs are long range ones...) and they lack mids to actually fit webs to apply their damage on favouret target. It is ESPECIALLY visible on heretic which was designed as frigate killer yet it cannot kill ceptors due to above. So yeh you answered your own quesiton. Its not explo velocity alone. Its explo velocity+missile (and target) velocity+amount of slots for ewar+amount of drones+DPS in their own respective class. Of which underlined elemends can be fixed by boosting explo velocity alone. More explo v. = less need for midslots for painters/webs (which frigs lack) and less need for TP/web drones (which frigs lack). Then there would DPS issue remain but i can forget about it if im able to apply current DPS on targets. Plus i myself prefer fixing stuff by small steps (tho it seems ccp thinks otherwise... one "fix" once per 3 years).
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.29 08:37:00 - [58] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 29/04/2010 08:38:56 Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Deva Blackfire Mere ya go. AB ishkur 888m/s, 39 sig. 53% damage reduction from rockets. 355,2m/s after getting webbed = 19% damage reduction. And ishkur isnt rly the fastest of them or the smallest. AB jag 905/34sig -> 57% reduction. 26% reduction after single web. AB dramiel 1798/32sig -> 72% reduction. After getting webbed 53% reduction. Stabber 918m/s 105 sig vs heavy missile (normal one): 70% reduction. After being webbed 47% reduction. Thorax: 543m/s 140 sig: 50% reduction. After being webbed: 11% reduction. This does not illustrate anything wrong with rocket explosion velocity. It actually reinforces the fact that explosion velocities are around where they should be. If you think rockets "only" dealing 81% damage on a webbed ab target is a problem, I hope you won't try the same with turrets while flying with your AB on. Good luck getting a guaranteed 81% hit quality on that one. What it does illustrate is an imbalance of signature radius and ship velocity in several Minmatar vessels. It also illustrates how ABs greatly increase velocity while not modifying signature in any way, something I personally disagree with... but neither of these has anything to do with rockets specifically. What you are illustrating is your inability of comprehensive reading. I already posted which issues would be fixed with explo velocity boost. Namely (and i do hate repeating myself): lack of mids AND drones for TP/webs. Easy example: eris. Second - heretic. Another hint: turret ship can improve hit quality by manual ship control - its kinda easy if you actually know you can do this. Missile ship cannot do this. It doesnt matter if transversal is 0 or 600 - explo velocity will be compared versus target velocity every time. Add lower DPS of rockets in their own respective ship class and we have whats now on TQ. So again: read my post, read posts on previous pages (launch vector, missile velocity issues) coz i wont repeat myself. EDIT: also its worth noting that there isnt cruiser or BS sized class copying interceptors. Only frigs get super-high velocity ship type which is major screw up on missile users side. Rockets were balanced (as it shows above) against circa 800-1000m/s ships with 34 sig. Not against 2x faster ones.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.04.29 22:55:00 - [59] You should team up with bellum. He is also widely misunderstood about his gallente fixes and how 4000dps megathron is not overpowered.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.04 08:11:00 - [60] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/05/2010 08:11:47 Originally by: Amberlamps stuff 1. this is ROCKET FIX thread not MISSILE WHINE thread 2. what Duchess said: you have NO CLUE how missile system works. Go educate yourself before you throw some stupid arguments 3. go educate yourself about strengths and weaknesses of each weapon systems - as it seems you dont even know this 4. you too can go and pair up with bellum for some "gallente fix" or "caldari fix". Here i even come up with an idea for you: "missiles always hit for full damage !!!", but go and do this in another thread. Thank you. EDIT: @ Mohenna. Pretty much what Duchess said. We already have missile system that NEEDS another ship with 1-2 webs and painters to kill frigs (hell... to kill cruisers). And there is absolutely no point in doubling up that role to rocket ships.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.04 20:55:00 - [61] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/05/2010 20:56:10 @ above As much as i would love 200dps on malediction im actually sane person who doesnt run around with bellum-style ideas. Hint: with your idea kestrel would be close to 400dps. And thats just wrong. If you do 50% boost then its 300dps. But then malediction hitting for 20 or 30dps... does it really matter? 1 SAR can tank that. So in the end you dont improve hit quality as quality remains same, just DPS number goes up. Improving quality means more effective damage from same damage output (similiar to turret hit quality). And that means: better explo velocity. Also having CONSTANT 80-100dps would be MUCH better than having random 30-200dps numbers. Weapon system you can depend on >>>> random weapon system with huge dps possibility. And like before: if you want huge dps, go bombers. They already exist.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.05 08:00:00 - [62] Originally by: yani dumyat Are you two smoking crack? I specifically stated that doubling the DPS and not touching the Ev/Er would be bad because "doubling the damage to 200 paper dps only increases the applied damage to 50 dps, this still leaves you with a big deficit compared to the dps a claw or taranis can dish out." Go back and read the last paragraph, I said "increase the raw damage of rocket ships to the point where they are comparable to turrets." It's not a hard statement to understand. Yes rockets need an increase to Ev/Er, I've never said otherwise but I did say bring them in line with torps. This means your idea is even MORE stupid as it makes rockets WAY overpowered. Told you already: if you want to throw bellum style ideas go somewhere else. This thread is about balancing rockets and not some fantasy land "boost everything by 7658346%". Quote: A raven with a scram and web will hit for full damage against most battleships you actually meet in game, unlike rockets which do not hit for full damage against scrammed and webbed frigates that you do meet in game. The torp philosophy is good but unlike with BS where you need to balance against MWD's you need to balance the Ev/Er of rockets against AB frigates. You dont fly raven much dont you? It hits only around half of in-game battleships for full damage. Even ships as large as apocalypse get around 10% DPS reduction. Hell even the flying turd domi gets some reduction. Quote: No it wouldn't for two reasons: 1) Those numbers are not random, the whole point of player skill is to maximize the potential of your ship. Can you imagine how dull eve would be if all weapons had such a narrow range of potential DPS? Did you ever use rockets in combat? Once? I hope you know that player skill can not improve rocket hit quality because of how missiles work: ergo doesnt matter how you pilot your ship its only up to your ENEMY to decide how hard he will get hit. Also if you dont know this already most ships/weapons get uniform damage distibution (close to maximum dps) IF you know how to pilot your ship. In the end the only weapon system that cannot get static damage are rockets - because of above: its not up to you to decide how much damage enemy does, its up to him. Quote: 2) Do you understand the missile formula? If rockets could hit a non webbed AB interceptor for 80 dps they would be doing a guaranteed 100 dps against every other frigate in the game, which is pretty dull in the first place but also leaves you woefully short of the turret ships that are hitting between 100 and 200 dps. Also according to your previous statement its better to increase BOTH their DPS and explo velocity/explo radius values. Ummm - i think you are the one who tries to do some magical balancing yet who doesnt understand how formula works at all. Plus you dont really understand WHAT you want to do. But please go on: give PROPER numbers so we can actually work on them and criticize your idea even more. At the moment you only gave vague "up dps, change ev/er values" without any details what effects you expect from this. Go on, im waiting. So tell me exactly what DPS numbers you expect to get on: battleship (so pretty much max dps), on non webbed AB ceptor (1,7km/s 30ish sig), webbed ceptor (600m/s, 30ish sig)? Without this there is really no point in further discussing anything with you as your statements are as wide as "let there be world peace".
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.05 08:19:00 - [63] Originally by: Dreed Roberts Originally by: Yankunytjatjara SMs do alpha, not dps. I am neutral towards a change in sms explo speed, but any dps change is wrong. Rockets compared to the other missiles isn't fair due to range, and the need to be in web range. The need to be in scram/web range, seen as you do as an advantage, or at least a synergy with the rocket range, is borderline troll imo. Finally your numbers are a bit off, you do need a web on an ABing cruiser, perhaps you're considering basic skills? The boosts to speed are a lot more than the boosts to explosion speed. Rocket range is not fair how? all the other unguided have massively shorter ranges compared to their guided equivalent. There is huge difference between operating in whole web range (0-17km form HAMs and same from torps) and operating in 0-6km for rockets which is not even half of web range. Why 0-6km? Fit rocket ship, fly it in combat and you will see. Quote: What I meant was based on my observation that web increases DPS more than TP. Perhaps the ballance was set this way after the rocket range was chosen. Thus making it so you only had to fit one module not two (as in just a web that keeps target at your desired range and increases your DPS, as opposed to having to fit a TP for damage AND a web for maintaining range). You get outdamaged by ACs in all ranges while using rockets. Lasers just obliterate you in those distances. Hell even blasters with null will outdamage you up to circa 4km giving you only slight distance to take your advantage. Quote: Finally I am not sure how you mean my numbers are off. I think you will find the calculations are correct. But if you like, give me the example ship fits you want compared and I will run them again for your specific case. However you will see that rockets will do more DPS than a light missile regardless of the case. Try AB hacs not AB thorax (which is kinda one of slowest ships). Also the fact that you cant even get half dps on AB vaga says its all: how the F can FRIG WEAPON SYSTEM not damage CRUISER for full damage, no matter the fit? I so want to see small guns (even lasers) outtracked by AB cruiser.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.05 11:25:00 - [64] Originally by: yani dumyat Originally by: Deva Blackfire Improving DPS in any way even while changing ev/er values will mean you create 400dps vs battleship kestrels. Kestrel has MORE dps than most turret frigs in this game, no need to double it. Ok I know for sure you're just trolling now, I don't have eft in front of me but I know a rocket kestrel with dual BCU's, CN rockets and lvl 5 skills does about 150 DPS, you've plucked this 400 figure out of your ass. Funny. My kestrel does 197dps right now. You know some kids on the block can use rage rockets, overheat AND implants. Its not like you will lose pod anyways. Quote: If you're using officer mods, overheat and uber expensive implants to fit a kezzie then thrown the number about like we should be comparing it to standard T2 fit turret frigates then please stop posting. Even dual BCU's on a kestrel are unusual due to fitting constraints. Ofc i am using 5% missile rof implant. And ofc im using overheat. Everyone can use those and they should be taken into account. If you dont use it its YOUR problem that you handicap yourself. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Did you ever use rockets in combat? Once? I hope you know that player skill can not improve rocket hit quality because of how missiles work: ergo doesnt matter how you pilot your ship its only up to your ENEMY to decide how hard he will get hit. Originally by: yani dumyat blahblahblahwordsblahblahblah i dont have anything to back up my ideas Again: come back when you actually have something more than :words: to discuss about. Till now you thrown ideas (cool, no problem with that) but you just tried to smash all discussion into "IM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG" tracks. So now im waiting for proof. Quote: Most missiles are fine for what they do in game because of the targets they shoot at, rockets are different because of the proliferation of AB frigates since QR. You know that there are PLENTY more issues other than rocket damage vs AB frigs? Ofc anyone checking this thread (even first 3 pages) would know this.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.05 11:53:00 - [65] And as clear post: other possibility is playing with DRF value. For example with DRF of 3 (current): 1700 / 30sig - 27% damage 500 / 30 sig - 57% damage 1200 / 115 sig - 75% damage (i dunno where did he find 50% reduction on vaga... assumed his numbers were correct) With DRF 1: 65% 83% 91% So speed does decrease damage from rockets but not that heavily. And web does almost 50% boost to dps on AB ceptor. With slight DPS boost (say 20%) we are looking at: 70DPS on AB ceptor, 90DPS on webbed+AB, circa 100dps at others (120dps max). Imo gets kinda heavy for AB/non webbed ship. This pretty much bumps whole damage one "bracket" up. AB ceptors get hit like webbed AB ceptors. Webbed AB ceptors get hit like MWD ceptors. No stupid uber-dps boats, damage (120dps at max) more-less on par with turrets (tad lower than turret users but better range, loses only to lasers on whole range but has tracking advantage). Needs web for uber fast combat but thats not bad i guess...
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.05 22:22:00 - [66] Yeh i know its missile stat and that every missile type has different value. I wasnt just sure if was derivered from Er/Ev or if it was totally independent stat. Now i know its independent.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.06 09:15:00 - [67] Quote: Secondly guns always out damage missiles. Always, in every weapon size guns do more damage than the missile equivalent. Are you trying to sneak a missile buff in? So I am not sure what your point about guns out damaging rockets is. I really don't understand what you are getting at. They do i agree. But like i said in one of my posts earlier - not to such an extent. Rockets are close range missiles, yes? So lets compare them to HAMs and torps (in their own weight classes). No drones in comparison. Torps on raven (6x siege t2, CN ammo): 537 dps. Geddon (7x megapulse, AN MF) 517dps. Mega (7x neutron blaster, CN AM): 537 dps. So all in all raven isnt the weakest of them all. Torps actually sit in line with other weapon systems (well are even tad better due to 1 less launcher being comparable to 7 guns) and only drones on other ships give them huge advantage. Still its around 10% difference from top damage dealers. HAMs: Sac (CN HAM): 282dps, Zealot (hvy pulse + multi) 346dps, Vaga (220 + RF EMP): 289dps. So again kinda in line (zealot since 5th turret always had kinda large dps numbers). But even against zealot thats only 20% difference. Rockets: Diction (CN gremlin): 60dps. Crusader (DPL + AN MF): 135. Ranis (neutron) 156. Claw (3x 150mm RF EMP): 117. So against claw thats almost 50% difference. 55% against sader. 62% against ranis. I know all 3 are combat ceptors and maled is tackle ceptor but still... it pales in comparison to other ships in class especially if you look at it knowing that HAMs and torps are competetive. Vengeance 78dps. Jaguar (3x 150mm) 117dps.Harpy (4x electron blaster - dunno what harpies use) 134 dps. Against jag thats 35% difference. Against harpy 42%. So again - in its own ship class (and i cant call it "tackle AF" this time) rockets are waaay behind. So even excluding fix to explo velocity/DRM/whatever rockets need plain DPS boost. The 20% i proposed would give veng 94dps. Still behind but falling only 20% short of jag. Diction 72dps... thats still lagging way behind. Dunno - this + 10% damage boost on diction instead of 5%? Anyways wanted only to show that missiles in their own ship classes work ok. Except rockets which are far behind.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.06 23:43:00 - [68] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 06/05/2010 23:43:20 It was stated in my post: clear setups with only guns/launchers (no damage mods) and no drones. Only to compare gun/launcher damage ability. If i were to use some stupid numbers i could compare veng to blaster ishkur (300+? cant remember) or maled to blaster ranis + drones + stuff (also 250+dps).
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.08 14:47:00 - [69] Originally by: Maeve Kell Edited by: Maeve Kell on 08/05/2010 13:42:18 isnt a weapon system that can hit while you fly like 15 km/s imba? isnt it good that it does no reasonable damage.. i dont want my cruisers to be ****ed by crows. kthxbye the one thing i learned in eve in all the years is: eft numbers dont tell anything, the damage that hits the target is important Clueless troll warning. Dont read it can cause brain damage.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.17 11:27:00 - [70] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 17/05/2010 11:27:05 Seriously? Id prefer if they said "**** off, we will never fix this" instead of "sometime after XYZ expansion". Atm the amount of stuff that should be reworked, fixed or updated after "XYZ expansion" is already so huge that it can fill 3 expansions ALONE. But yeah, bring on incarna, half-working feature which will be used for 1-2 months before people get bored and wait for obvious bug fixes and stuff in "near future" which never happens. As for rockets - yeah i read about that "rework". And its again roll of the dice: balanced? screwed up? overpowered? No idea but surely not just easily fixed. Also its kinda funny that games-workshop (the company that does warhammer tabletop) can fix some bugs in their games FASTER than CCP can. For those who dont know: they release nev version of old armier every 5 years or so and in meantime give some erratas out. Still - its more often than CCP does it. And i always thought that digital distribution and digital products can be fixed on spot. I was so wrong all that time...
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.17 19:14:00 - [71] Originally by: Zendoren Regarding Rockets, T2 Ammo and AF Afterburners: Please read this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1317960&page=1#5 I can confirm it was NOT linked/quoted in this thread 3 times already. Not at all.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.19 12:55:00 - [72] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac But there are issues with missiles that make them a little sub par compared to guns... Namely the high travel times on long ranges (which could be reduced though not eliminated, I don't want another turret with different graphics), the launch vector and the range problem. TBH missile travel time is not a huge issue even with cerb at 200km. After a while you just get used to this and just learn how to pick proper targets. Launch vector is an issue with short range missiles: rockets, HAMs and torps. IMO ccp could just remove the whole "missile needs to speed up" thingy. IMO its outdated and not needed anymore + surely has to put some strain on server to calc it for every missile/volley. Just make missiles start with full speed and be done with it. Quote: I have though about this for a while and I've come to the conclusion that to realistically solve those problems you would have to change from the partially physics based missile model we have now (they are temp objects that fly with dynamics akin to the ships) they would have to change to a simulation model (kind like the turrets). Not sure if it was in this thread or other one but yeh that was one of the conclusions. Do hit/miss (if target is in range) check at launch and leave rest on cliend side (pretty gfx where missile goes towards target) - but we know that target is hit already. I know it would partially remove the ability to outrun missiles but on other hand it would fix the issues with short range missiles never hitting their target. Quote: defenders suddenly got much more efficient against this "mega missile" because a single defender will actually kill more than 1 missile (as would have been the case with separate missiles). Afaik defenders will always kill 0-1 missiles from salvo (they dont have enough damage to kill 2). Exception is NPC defenders which have nasty habit of killing even group of 6 torps (Thor torp spamming guristas station does this). But yeh i do agree. Changing missiles from object to simulation can unlock higher missile speeds and generally seems like a good idea.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.19 23:06:00 - [73] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Deva: yes travel time isn't that high but it still takes some time to travel to the target so you often end up with a blown target before the missiles hit. I used to have this problem even with just a drake if there are enough people around. This is what i call using brain while flying missile ship (and especially cerb). WHY do you attack target that you KNOW will die before your missiles hit him? Attack secondary/tertiary or pick your own targets. I never had problems getting on mails (even including top dealer) in fleet fights with cerb - mostly because i was operating independent from main target calling (killing sabres, EWar, bombers - so stuff i can kill easily with 2 salvos and stuff that isnt primaried).
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.20 12:00:00 - [74] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Works up to a point. Three problems with what you say: 1) With a fleet big enough, even secondaries tertiaries will be almost instapopped 2) If there isn't a big number of enemies, like in an heavy gate camp, you're going to do no damage. 3) If the enemy is using RR heavily (either armor or shield), firing on secondary targets is actually helping them most of the time 1. then chose your own targets based on your knowledge of battlefield. EWar, tacklers, bombers, dictors. Or just pick weakest of enemy bunch and fire on it. Even 1 cerb will force scorpion or pest off the field fairly quick. 2. that means you blobbed them and in really have no pity for this. In equal fights you will always hit something. 3. then you fire on primaries, obvious. Its up to missile user to think a little more than "primary, secondary". Like i said: i use missiles on my alt heavily (well... shes caldari an she can ONLY use missiles so its obvious i use them for pvp) and i never had problems with this. Well except for rockets which kinda suck (tho they are still better on caldari boats than amarr ones) and cruises which suck a lot. Second one is partially my fault, TZer (or w/ever his name is spelled - guy from Burn Eden) was right :X Quote: Now, I don't ask for instant hits like turrets, I wouldn't want that. Just higher missile top speed... If you check the thread I linked above you will see the reasons why. As i said i have no problem with this. Especially on close range missiles (like rockets) which funnily enough can be outrun...
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.25 17:16:00 - [75] Originally by: Drenan CCP found time to 'fix' courier missions in Tyrannis...but not rockets, ye gods, what do we have to do...sacrifice the first-born? Already did that :X Didnt help it seems
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.28 09:18:00 - [76] I think they are trying to save whats left of PI... before it even launched :D haha
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.05.28 13:03:00 - [77] Originally by: Number 17 Originally by: yani dumyat CCP please, you could make a lot more people happy by doing 2 simple(r) things: Increase Ev to 120 m/s Increase load to 80 units Not really. With Ev 120 you need to reduce DRF to 1.5.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.12 08:47:00 - [78] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/06/2010 08:47:34 Because flavor texts are most important part of balancing the game. Plus we have a frig weapon system for taking out bigger ships - its called stealth bomber + torps.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.12 10:57:00 - [79] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/06/2010 11:04:21 Originally by: Ekrid some dribbling moron stuff You are pretty special boy, arent you? 1. flavor text indicates nothing. 2. stop doing drugs. It hurts your brain. Plus as you dont know we are talking about t2 ships in most cases (interceptors, AFs, interdictors) as from t1 ships ONLY kestrel uses rocket launchers often enough to be bothered with any changes. 3. point 1 and 2. Shows whos the idiot in this thread. 4. kestrel is already hardest hitting frigate in game (think only incursus can get more dps). So what you on about again? Ah yea... drugs. So you are butthurt 3mil sp tool, who has no clue about game or game balance, who doesnt even know what is his ship role in the fight? Learn to play then enter balance topics. Thanks. To sum up: you are a nobody here, you enter the thread throwing insults left and right without ANY proposals/counter proposals/valid arguments and you dont want to be ridiculed on the spot? Try again but with another character, this is already burnt and prolly will be remembered as a clueless trol. Bye, i hope the door hits you on the way out. EDIT: AHHHHH now i remember. You are the guy who whined that got owned by harbinger while flying frig and whining how DPS did not decrease in tight orbit (even tho you got hit once per 50 shots). proof of being ** at EVE WARNING TO OTHERS - HE IS JUST A CLUELESS TROLL !!!**
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.12 11:09:00 - [80] Awesome, 10 mil. Still at least 30 to go before you should post here. Bye
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.15 21:49:00 - [81] Before CCP fixes rockets ill be long gone to just announced WH40k MMO which will have working rockets in form of bolters. yay.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:29:00 - [82] I would LOVE to see the statistics of AT8. For example: how many rocket launchers were fitted on ships in comparison to other weapon systems (including no weapons at all).
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.01 11:09:00 - [83] Originally by: Isil Rahsen Lolol, I saw that same info and about died from laughing. I don't know where to be shocked or give up all hope. Roflkets will probably never be fixed. Linky plz? As for rockets. In the time it takes CCP to change 2 numbers there was new stadium built in my city. From scratch. Including demolishing previous stuff in the area and buying off the parcel(s). Never thought being game developer is such a hard work.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.06 12:35:00 - [84] Originally by: Libin Herobi Are you seriously trying to say you haven't found a free slot for this fix in 6 months?! More like 17 months (this thread life). Tho the issue was known even earlier, pretty much just after nano nerf.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.08 22:40:00 - [85] Originally by: Captain Muscles Or... Deadliest Warrior: Hawk vs. Rifter... I lold
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.13 12:01:00 - [86] Dont worry. In 18-24 months CCP will have resources to check whats broken in this game and make list of things to fix. Then another 12-24 months of implementation and we should have rockets fixed by 2014. In the meantime we will be able to redo our avatars and sit in spacebarTM (or just ignore it altogether, same way i did it with PI).
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.14 10:29:00 - [87] Originally by: CCP Chronotis A boost, we recognise that rockets do not really pack the punch they should when they compare to other weapons of the equivalent class. We cannot really say more openly until we get to the point where further details will be released in the usual blogs as we near the public testing stage. Needless to say we have kept up with the feedback at the start of the thread when there was good discussion going on so aware of the various suggestions. I hope you do recognise other problems with rockets other than damage itself: - inability to deal decent damage to small targets (especially ABing frigs) without using 1+ (2+ for Ab ships) webs or multiple painters which is impossible to put on one frig --> explo velocity and DamageReductionFactor issue - short range due to how rocket is fired from ship (in front of) and due to rocket being "dumb" and not following target for around a second after a launch (which is around 1/3 of its total flight time = loses 1/3 of its range before it even starts to track target) - inability to hit non-webbed MWD frigs due to low velocity (3-4km/s wheras heavy missiles/cruises get upwards to 8km/s... its funny when heavy missile can catch up to ceptor and frig vs frig weapon cant) And probably few more im forgetting at the moment. My point is: if you really plan on redoing rockets (as was stated by DEV in one of many random "fix it" threads) then at least do it right. And honestly if i were to chose only ONE fix from list above then Explo velocity/DRF is the most important one, much more than damage itself. Two fixes? Previous one + damage.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.14 10:47:00 - [88] Small re-post from my previous post, sums up most (all?) issues: List of issues with rockets (complete): - inability to deal decent damage to small targets (especially ABing frigs) without using 1+ (2+ for Ab ships) webs or multiple painters which is impossible to put on one frig --> explo velocity and DamageReductionFactor issue - low damage (DPS) values. Bonused rocket launchers (+25% damage) are outclassed even by lowest tier autocannons and lasers - small clip capacity. Increase it to 80 (?) as rockets already lose circa 10% dps from reloads alone. Reducing ROF and upping damage (so DPS stays the same) would also help the issue a bit. Yet another way: reduce size of rockets. - short range due to how rocket is fired from ship (in front of) and due to rocket being "dumb" and not following target for around a second after a launch (which is around 1/3 of its total flight time = loses 1/3 of its range before it even starts to track target) - inability to hit non-webbed MWD frigs due to low velocity (3-4km/s wheras heavy missiles/cruises get upwards to 8km/s... its funny when heavy missile can catch up to ceptor and frig vs frig weapon cant) - "missile agility" issue. Old test of mine: rockets change dirtection (while following target) each second. This means that target which turns fast will not be hit at all (they have like 2 direction changes and are gone). Tested on close range orbit ceptor (think he was 500m orbit, landed at 3,5km from me doing around 2km/s) - with skills 5/5/dictors 4 (heretic, thus additional 40% to rocket velocity) he was hit 3 times out of around 100 rockets fired. - fitting issues of t2 rocket launchers on some ships. Example: heretic. Fitting 6 rocket launchers eats most of CPU ship has to offer. Any decent anti-frig setup (similiar to sabre: extender, web, damage mod, bubble blower, guns/rockets) will hit the CPU wall (and grid wall soon after) wheras sabre or catcher has no big issues fitting it all. If i missed any please say so, ill add them to the list and copy-paste from time to time (can be on start of every page ;p)
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.15 12:38:00 - [89] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 15/07/2010 12:41:39 Originally by: CCP Chronotis This is one of the primary issues surrounding the possible changes and which route we take. The unguided missiles from rockets to HAMs or torpedoes were intended to be much more effective weapons against larger ship classes which is reflected in their stats rather than be equally effective vs the same hulls. However as Tonto points out the relative velocity and sig radius min/max is much less variable as you move up to cruisers and battleships. Ships like HAM drake or HAM sacrilege perform their roles well as do the torp ravens. However rocket crows or vengeance lack the punch these lot serve and that is most likely what we will address. HAMS do only 25% more DPS than HMLs but they fortunately hit well vs their own size. Also even tho they have slightly worse stats for hitting faster ships thing you pointed out (less diversity in velocity/sig radius in cruiser class) needs to be taken into consideration. But there is another important facto about the hulls they are being used on: cruiser/BC hulls have enough midslots to actually mount web+scram on every setup. Their designed targets (cruiser sized ships) even when ABing can be webbed and get hit by most of DPS again. Wheras rockets are default anti-frig system BUT ABing frig is actually so damn fast (and rocket stats so bad) you need 2 webs to bring them back to normal DPS level. Result? HAM using cruiser needs 3 mids to be effective: mwd/ab+web+scrambler, where rocket frig needs 3: mwd/ab+2xweb+scrambler. As for "effectiv vs larger hulls" i always thought its not missile system itself (rocket/HAM/torp) but rage ammo that was supposed to hit larger targets. As previously: normal HAMs hit cruisers well. Normal torps hit battleships well (tho imo tad weaker than HAM vs cruiser). But rockets? Ugh... we know the story. TBH better go to "long range weaker, short range stronger" missiles rather than "long range weak, larger targets stronger" style. Ships should have ability to engage at both distances vs their own respective hull sizes without problems. And when it comes to oversized targets - leave this to specialist (t2) ship hulls like bombers. They are prime example of very high DPS boat that can engage only larger hull size. And add anti-capital ship bomber with citadels and OMG WTF dps /dream mode. Quote: If we still intend to keep this role for the unguided missiles, then a damage increase would be done along with some changes to explosion velocity and radius with perhaps some changes to the light missiles to ensure they are effective anti-frigate missiles for example if we went that route. If it was up to me (all round missile changes/balance): up HAM damage a little bit again (10% perhaps), reduce torp explo radius a little, fix rockets (via stuff in this thread), buff cruises a little, change fitting on standards. Also t2 ammo: precissions need a buff badly as there is no point in using them compared to CN ammo (CN has like 5% less DPS vs undersized targets but 2x the range). From all missiles in this game Heavy missiles are the best balanced ones and should be a template for cruises/standards in their own respective ship classes. Hams/torps would need little tweaks to become "template" but they arent bad, just somewhat lacking in longer run. Oh yea i forgot: there is slight problem with HAMs ;p If you buff them drake will go from awesome to omgnerf. So maybe in the end dont touch em... FAKE EDIT: i re-edited this 3 times while posting so might be mish-mashed a little ;p
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.18 00:38:00 - [90] Originally by: yani dumyat Now for a more torpish low explosion velocity, high damage option: DRF = 1.5 Ev = 100 Er = 20 Damage = + 65% This would put rocket ships about on par with lasers for raw DPS (crow 160dps / crusader 166dps) Its decent idea but as previous issues: would possibly need to change (nerf) kestrel. And maybe change crow somehow. If you have spare time try and run more-less the DPS amount (kinetic/other) on all ships which use rockets (include 1 damage mod on all, just for comparison). As for Ev/Er/DRF stats. For example malediction: 33 sig, 1460with AB. Gets hit by 60% of the DPS. With single web it jumps to 80%. With MWD its 56% and 73% respectively. Kinda funny that with those changes MWD is better at tanking rockets than AB (ofc on ceptors with sig reduction). For dramiel (clear fit, t2 ab or just mwd): AB 58% AB+web 77% MWD 73% (IF rockets actually connect with dram - at those speeds dram should outrun them) MWD+web 96% Looks decent. Ceptors can MWD tank (their role), other frigs need AB. I need to think a little more about... going to sleep for now.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.20 21:50:00 - [91] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 20/07/2010 21:55:35 Originally by: Krennel Darius Thanks for taking your time to chat with us in this thread Chronitis. While many people may be fairly hostile toward CCP's stance on running EVE at the moment, it is still refreshing to have a dev in here for us to throw our ideas at, and not just a brick wall of a thread to bang our heads on. Thats what i particularily dislike about "chat with dev" in any topic. Most of DEV responses arent even ON topic and most of the people who respond to said responses also miss the point. In this thread particularly i dont rly give a damn who screwed up rockets in 1st place or why. The important part is how WE can find a way to fix the issue (and we found a few ways already) or how DEVs see the issue (which partially can help us "guide" our thoughts). For example Chronotis stating that they wanted "high damage short range missiles effective against larger targets" pretty much changed the course of our thinking here. And out of all DEV responses in this thread that was IMO the most important sentence. I really would prefer shorter and faster version. What do we have - ccp does their version. Players then can compare it, raise issues (if idea is totally out of the window) or propose tweaks. Tweaks get added (or no), another short discussion. 3-4 cycles, few sisi tests, done. Geez i just did whole design-fix-do QA tests line! And if it still doesnt work properly (tested by full TQ player base) then issue can be easily fixed next patch while undertaking same steps. Time taken? Probably less than moving your (CCP's) whole "design team" to fix the issue. Players happy? All the users of said feature. I really do not understand why its so friggin hard to tweak (as in slightly adjust) few numbers from patch to patch. I always thought that developement of e-media means you can do the changes on spot. But atm it seems that upgrading the tank or plane or even gun takes less time INCLUDING design stages and implementation. Programming is harder than rocket science i guess...
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 00:57:00 - [92] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Nope it's just that you're talking about rockets exclusively, while I'm talking about short range missiles in general. So while having to tackle/web for a frigate is basically mandatory anyway with short range weapons, cruisers and BSs don't need that. Mostly because cruiser/BS short ranged weapons have tad better stats than frig ones AND their designed targets (cruisers for HAM, BS for torp) usually dont run on AB and are naturally quite slow (MWD tanking missiles in kinda weird as you dont get such huge damage reductions as with AB). Quote: Vagabond, for example, normally fits just long point and no webs, and still uses the short range weapons. On the cerberus you can't do that even though your hams could hit up to 50 and some kms. Ofc you can but cerb is generally bad solo boat. It is quite slow and has fitting issues with HAMs (+MWD, +LSEs). But if you really want you can always slap on longer point like RF or TS and solo. But generally there are better ships for this role. That said HAMs hit non-webbed cruisers quite well (except for vaga and prolly cynabal but thats quite obvious). I do have most of my cerb kills in HML setup tho, but when it comes to sacrilege i always used long point and never had issues killing stuff. Quote: And that's because even against same size targets the webber is almost mandatory (though the painter can help, but with a much lower efficiency), never mind using hams against smaller targets. As above. Against same size targets you dont rly need web when using HAMs. They have goon enough stats to kill non-webbed cruisers. Ofc in 90% cases you will want to put web on them just to stop them from running away. Against smaller targets its obvious web is almost always needed - thats how missiles work... Quote: So what is basically a mean to prevent the target from escaping becomes, for short range missiles ships only (and here lies what I, at least, perceive as something not balanced), a necessary mean for dealing damage. Again: only for rockets. Was using disruptor only on torp raven - never had issues (changed to scrambler only because couldnt cope with tards burning away with MWD... raven is kinda slow even on overheat). HAMs - same story as above. Tho 2/3 of ingame HAM boats (drake, sacri, 3rd one is cerb) can fit web+disruptor/scrammer no problem. Cerb unfortunately has fitting issues. Aaaand when it comes to rockets? World is turned upside down. You need web to damage anything (even non-ABing non-MWDing frig), you need scram+web to actually damage MWDing frig and 2x web+ point to kill ABing frig. So totally different story. FAKE EDIT: actually i flown HAM cerb. I forgot i had HAM skills before i got HML. But that was mostly gang dps/support and with 90% webs.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 10:50:00 - [93] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac But I'm not really that sure about hams on same targets... Like you said, they already have fitting problems on their own, which makes it harder to fit tank, Only on cerb (and mostly on NH). Tengu, Drake, Sacri, Legion (lol) fits them ok. Quote: they have very limited range (except on the cerberus, ofc) and the added damage compared to HM isn't that much, when it gets reduced by some % no matter what. Its plain 25% damage boost. 29% damage reduction vs 1544m/s, 870sig ishtar (only MWD, no LSE, going in straight line). Dual LSE ishtar going in straight line gets 7% damage reduction. So you are already better than heavy missiles. Vs same ishtar without speed mod you get 100% damage. Yeah HAM stats suck, they deal full damage MWDing or non-prop cruisers. Almost like rockets. Only non-mwd vaga gets 40% damage reduction while moving in straight line. try orbitting or turn on MWD and it hurts. Fact is: HAMS work PERFECTLY against their intended targets. Even better than torps because they can deal full damage in almost all cases (where torps deal reduced damage vs tier1 battleships). Quote: Yes, you don't get a drastic reduction of damage like rockets, I know, but given the worse stats, the higher DRF (which, again, means that you lose target diversity... Anything too small or too fast (and those aren't big numbers either) will reduce the damage done FASTER than what you lose with hmls) No they dont because their intended targets cant run 5km/s. Most hacs (cruisers) end up around 2km/s speed which is still within hard-hitting range of hams without huge damage reduction. Quote: I used to fly a ham drake and while I did some satisfying kills with it, I realized how poor it performs in real combat situations What is a "real combat situation"? Or are you talking from high horse here (aka "i fly in blobs! hams dont work in blobs")? Because whenever i fought in "real combat situations" (ergo: not on sisi) i NEVER had issues with HAMs. Selecting proper ship/weapon for a job is 1st thing you should consider before even undocking. Quote: and why the run of the mill HML drake is superior. Yeh. Tell it to 3-5 man gangs i flown for quite a while. Im sure HML's 450-500 dps would be appreciated more than 600+ from HAM drake. TBH id prefer some facts/numbers rather than "real combat situation" lulz generalization. Also id kinda prefer to get back on topic - rockets.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 13:54:00 - [94] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Drake on the other hand has to sacrifice quite some tank and normally even some damage modding to fit a balanced HAM setup. If you want to make it agile enough to run after some ships then you may have to waste even more tank/dmg mods. WHAT? Learn how to fit proper HAM drake... it easily fits 7x HAM + 3x BCU (needs 3% PG implant iirc). If you dont want that implant just swap 1x HAM for HML. Done. Tank is as sturdy as it can get: LSE + 2x invul + dc + 3x extender rig. Thats 80k to 91k (overheated) EHP while sporting almost 680dps non-overheated. There IS a reason drake is considered best BC out there... at least for those who know how to fit and fly it. Quote: Now, I'm using eft to calculate this because I don't want to dig up the dmg formula to make the exact calcs. So it may be wrong but... You say non mwd vaga gets 40% dmg reduction... EFT shows that a MWDed, double lse'd vaga flying in straight line gets about 50% damage reduction. Bear in mind also that the vaga is one of the ships which you are most likely to encounter anyway. A long range fit made for tank more than damage (with TP I have to add) outdamages the ham fit from the get-go if the scrambler/webbers are off. With the painter off, the damage is perhaps 20 dps lower than the ham fit while outside web range. Yes yes you have TP and stuff. And you wont kill said Vaga anyways without proper tackle as he will warp away anyways. So it dfoesnt mean if you use HAM or HML as damage reduction will be 100% as soon as he warps. Thats the difference between "eft combat" and "tq combat". Also Vaga is the only exception i shown for comparison. Why did you ignore the rest of slower cruisers the game has to offer? Quote: On a mwding sniper zealot the results are exactly the same, with the difference that the long range fit with painter on does top damage, while the ham fit isn't anywhere close to doing that. That's because of the DRF difference, which makes the heavy missiles cap in damage quite faster. Its not "exactly the same" Its not even close to being "the same". MWD+LSE (typical long range zealot fit) gets only 30% damage reduction while flying in straight line. Thats without counting in any rigs. And again - your HML drake has no ability to hold it from running away = you need another ship with web. If oyu use web you might aswell use it on said drake and then just use HAMs. Quote: On a close range AB zealot, the things go even worse. The dmg differential between HML and HAM is wider (though they both suffer from a huge damage loss, if outside web range, the zealot reduces HAM damage by almost 75%, while HML fit, even with painter off is just a little under 50% reduction AND over the now reduced ham dps). Close range zealot fit will get webbed. That means single web will put damage reduction down to 37% if he is going in straight line. If hes doing curved runs his reduction drops even further. For HML+TP (no web) damage reduction is 49% in straight line. 37% reduction is less than 49% (plus HAMs have 25% base DPS more). Its worth remembering that single web is almost as effective as 2x TP. Quote: I gave you three VERY common pvp fits, found both in small and large roaming gangs as well as fully fledged fleet ops. So... Either the EFT formula is completely off (which, I grant you, may be possible) or perhaps I'm not exactly pulling things out from thin air. Nope. You are just using wrong ships for the wrong job. You try to engage sniper zealots with HAM drake (lol) or vaga with HML drake without having additional tackle. If i were to take HAM drake to sniper fest i too would whine its not good. But for their own job HAMs (that is: fighting within web range or around 15-20km tops) they are superior to HML in any way. And dont forget surprise buttsex gangmod drake with 17km web and 14km scram.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 14:01:00 - [95] Quote: Rockets have been debated for a long time and since devs stated that they are taking a broader look at missiles (though it may just be that, a look), I don't think we're wasting time with this. And also while the terminology may be imperfect, I'm not trying to troll nor I'm spouting nonsense. My claims have some substance behind them. I don't believe they are universally accepted, not the perfect look on the situation, but you shouldn't think I'm completely clueless either. This sentence fortunately saved you from lots of smack from my side (i deleted it just now). And im speaking broadly from pretty much all point of views: both large and small (solo) bombat both in empire (wardecs)/lowsec and nullsec. Only issues i've ever had with HAMs is taking wrong ship with wrong gang. Bringing HAM boat to 50 man gang (happened, i dont deny it) was stupid and pointless. For smaller combat HAMs actually show how short range missiles should have been balanced. IMO even torps could learn a thing or 2 from them (their stupidly large explo radius which doesnt catch tier1 BS easily). When it comes to short range missiles (rockets aside) is prefer to see torps changed a little not HAMs. And that is lowering explo velocity and explo radius just a little (say to 400-420 range). But its no biggy. Torps actually work, HAMs work, rockets dont.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 18:27:00 - [96] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 18:34:52 Yeh heretic is also fine ship, because i have almost 500 kills with it. Not. Most (out of 4 pages i checked at least 90-95%) of ceptors you soloed were **fits. Sure the piloting counts but when you engage lol 2x coproc or medium pulse crusaders it rly doesnt matter if you orbit them at 500 or not at all - they are so bad they will die even in straight out fight. Thats point number 1. Point number 2: even more of those kills are gang kills. So what you are saying is "rockets are fine as long as my enemy is ** fit and has no clue". Pretty much. Taranis (one of most used ceptors out there), gatling sader (not some funny DLP or DLB setup) - two of the best ceptors out there that have no problem at all with rocket ceptors. AB frigs (cant find any of those soloed by you) - also kinda immune to whatever you dish out (unless you tackle em and wait for gang - but thats not killing them but tackling). Veng/hawk fine? I dont see many kills using them either (nor many losses). To sum up: sure you have lots of kills with malediction. But lots of kills in a ship doesnt always mean its good, sorry to break your bubble. It only means you just fly a lot with it and get on lots of mails. What is easily doable in any small/med ship if s1 can be bothered to do it. And all the proofs in heavens and earth point that rockets are terribad indeed. EDIT: plus as i remember we had this discussion once already. And points stated then arent different today. EDIT2: also rockets are fine because i have rocket launcher on my dramiel and i do get kills! YAY !
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 19:38:00 - [97] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 19:45:23 Quote: You should leave drones out of the calculations if just for the fact that they are meaningless for comparing two fits of the same ship. Also, this fit DOES have less tank than the common HML one. You have to sacrifice one LSE for the webber. That brings you down to 83k ehp, while the hml hits 104k, overloadable to 119k. The third bcu is opinable because you need a grid implant if you want to fit it. That's not always doable, so I compared two similar 2 BCU fits (long and short). That's the whole difference between your "I know how to fit drakes" and my "you don't" drake. As i said. If you dont want BCU you swap 1x HAM to HML. You NEVER remove 3rd BCU from HAM drake. And yes drones are important. They add quite nice DPS to short range ship and are... hmm... useless at extreme ranges of HML ships? Quote: You are also talking exclusively about solo fighting it seems because in my original post (which should be... 3 posts ago? something like that), I stated that my problem is with the need for the tackle to do damage, not for the tackle to keep the guy there. So the point about the vagabond escaping is moot. Because if we want to be pedantic, with an HML fit at least you will hit the vagabond once or twice before he GTFO, while you won't even get in range to fire HAMs at all. Also... Need to tackle to do damage. And next you compare non-TP ship with TP one (even tho 1st one has a web which is used instead of TP). So either we compare missiles alone with no support at all or we use proper "support" the ship actually has to offer. Quote: Yes, in a 1 on 1 situation that's quite likely. It's also very unlikely for such a situation to ever happen. On the other hand, target painting is quite easier, and also, much more easily stackable. Uh actually 3x web will be as effective as infinite number of painters against smaller ships due to stacking penalty. Against cruisers on AB 2 webs will be better than 2 painters but at some points painters should take over (due to cruiser speed dropping under explo velocity but sig radius still being below explo radius). Still its such small difference it is really neiglible. And even if you go against clear zealot (125 sig vs 150ish HAM explo radius) the increased damage from HAMs will equal HMLs. Quote: I guess you never happened to run around in a roaming gang fighting whatever comes your way. I did. But iirc -a- is kinda higher in the food chain than generic_carebear_alliance and brings proper ships for roams instead of "put whatever you find, plexing drakes are OK too". Quote: I guess you have perfect intel and you know at any time what people are flying in that moment in every place. Yes i do. Otherwise i dont engage unless im sure my "wrong fit" can cope with it. If you end up in equal fight - you screwed up. If you end up using inferior ships against enemy - you screwed up REALLY BAD and the fight should have never happened. Quote: Perhaps I wouldn't bring a drake gang to a sniper fest if I knew that beforehand. I think you have one pair of eyes (or maybe you dont, dunno) and can see what ship types are in gang and judge from it what range will you engage at. If you see people bringing sniper zealots, muninns and cerbs and you bring HAM drake it means you are either clueless or kinda special... And yeh i have both HAM drake and HML drake (+gangmod fit) ready for both gang styles - short or long range.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 19:42:00 - [98] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 19:45:44 Originally by: Faffywaffy Also, losing to Garmon in his AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus doesn't count. It was a very close fight and he won because I didn't know it was him at the time and didn't expect it to be fit like that. Damn - so you mean you can only rush against clueless newbs with **fits after all. So still nothing that says rockets are fine. It only proves that rockets are fine as long as you fire at tards with crap fits. Originally by:** Faffywaffy Originally by: Deva Blackfire To sum up: sure you have lots of kills with malediction. But lots of kills in a ship doesnt always mean its good, sorry to break your bubble. It only means you just fly a lot with it and get on lots of mails. It does mean it when you can reliably defeat the overwhelming majority of other commonly fit interceptors. Are you suggesting that rockets should be buffed to the point where rocket crows/maledictios can beat all other interceptor fits? Im yet to see those kills you speak of. In previous discussion i did what Gypsio did here - linked some of your "awesome solo kills" against crapfits. And atm it only shows you can reliably ***** on mails / tackle stuff till friends arrive / kill said crapfits. Also taranis can possibly kill most/all other fits (excluding specific counter-fits, as they are what name implies - counters). So can sader with proper piloting skills/fit. So can dramiel (if hes smart) and possibly Daredevil. Why malediction shouldnt? Because you said so?
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.21 23:31:00 - [99] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/07/2010 23:32:29 Quote: Originally by: Deva Blackfire Need to tackle to do damage. And next you compare non-TP ship with TP one (even tho 1st one has a web which is used instead of TP). So either we compare missiles alone with no support at all or we use proper "support" the ship actually has to offer. Well I compared even without the TP on. In the three cases I shown, even with TP off the HML damage is VERY close (less than 50 dps difference) to HAM damage without webs, either in excess or in defect (while still having a lot more range). Also TP is much easier to apply than a web given its range, don't you agree? Jess. If im in HAM drake i will not engage at 50km. Nor at 30. I engage at around 18km (max HAM range). Thats only 5km from overheated web. As a result IF i engage with HAM drake it means ill be in web range almost always. Basics of target selection: tackle -> kill. I cant rly remember the time i actually fired at a target without having it webbed/tackled properly. And that includes small gangs - firing at non-tackled target is pointless as it can disengage whenever he wishes. As a result EVERY target i engaged was webbed. I dont care if TP works at 60km as i dont engage at that distance. Understood? You start to sound like all blaster whiners "but mah blasters dont hit at 40km". No they dont and never will. Tackle stuff, get close, **. And suddenly range is not an issue. Quote: Yes but getting 3 webs on a target is much harder than getting 3 TPs... Also with your last statement you basically say what I'm saying: HAM damage will equal HML damage. The problem is that HML damage can be done from up to around 3 times the range of the HAMs... Yes. But still i have advantage of actually being up and close to target = i can web him and keep him from running. Again specifics of said weapon are: you use it when you KNOW you will be close. There is no point at all arguing if HAMs on drake do good damage outside of web as you WILL be in web range. With some rare wonky exceptions of using javelins (again: RARE, as in one in 50 kills maybe). Quote: Yeah, but we are not talking about our alliances only, right? I mean, these changes are for everyone, not just high profile pvp alliances. If someone is too stupid to bring long range ship to long range gang is it my problem? Or maybe you are suggesting all weapons should be balanced towards **s? Then i propose to make every weapon out there same, so little Timmy wont get confused by accident and will be a winner every time he undocks. Quote:** Well I wasn't talking about MY gang. Ofc I'm not going to bring a HAM drake in a sniper hac gang. I was talking about what happens if you encounter an enemy sniper gang... If they jump on you they are toast... If they warp on you and you have bubble they are toast. If you have close warpin (either by probes or hero ceptor) then the snipers are game.. In 3rd case i dont engage. Duh i dont need to win them all if its not possible. Again: HAMs are fine if you use them with their role on mind. Ergo: engaging around web/scram range. They do have tad higher range but treat is as a bonus if you actually have gang/faction web instead of "i have 20km range i will engage on its edge". Damage wise? They are fine. Can they hit their intended targets for full/almost full damage? Sure they do. I dont see any problems here. EDIT: i wouldnt mind having 10% more DPS on them. Problem is: with 10% more DPS ill get around 1000dps on my tengu (without overheat) and around 730 on drake. Overpowered? Surely.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.22 13:14:00 - [100] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/07/2010 13:16:29 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/07/2010 13:15:35 Quote: Quote: Originally by: Faffywaffy Also, losing to Garmon in his AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus doesn't count. It was a very close fight and he won because I didn't know it was him at the time and didn't expect it to be fit like that. Damn - so you mean you can only rush against clueless newbs with **fits after all. So still nothing that says rockets are fine. It only proves that rockets are fine as long as you fire at tards with crap fits. No, it means that the tactics of fighting an AB/Scram/Web/Blaster Incursus are different from what you'd normally attempt to do when engaging a t1 frig in 0.0. So exactly what i said: as long as its fit with clueless pilot you can win. Bring better pilot with fit he actually knows how to use and damn, you are not so awesome anymore. Thanks for proving my point. Fortunately CCP acknowledged that rockets are fubar long time ago and you are wasting your breath. Would be hilarious to explain everyone "sorry guys, rockets were broken for 2 years, we were going to fix em but one dude killed some **fits and we dont want to fix them anymore". I hope you have similiar explanation why blasters dont need any fix. Well i do get kills with them and my proteus. Fine i guess v0v EDIT: @ Gecko - if you take it to other thread i might contine. Rocket thread, CBA.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.22 14:33:00 - [101] Yeh cute and all. But you are still only talking from the perspective of outtracking other guns using 2 ceptors which are fastest frigs out there (and they cant rly outrun gatlings if properly flown but thats neiglible as you kill badfits anyways). How is your rocket experience with remaining 10 rocket ships (which use rockets as primary weapon)? Ofc normal t2 fits, not 200mil expensive ones for comparison sake. Im yet to see heretic or AF outtracking small guns (and taranis will obliterate heretic in most cases).
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.30 17:13:00 - [102] List of issues with rockets (complete i think): - inability to deal decent damage to small targets (especially ABing frigs) without using 1+ (2+ for Ab ships) webs or multiple painters which is impossible to put on one frig --> explo velocity and DamageReductionFactor issue - low damage (DPS) values. Bonused rocket launchers (+25% damage) are outclassed even by lowest tier autocannons and lasers - small clip capacity. Increase it to 80 (?) as rockets already lose circa 10% dps from reloads alone. Reducing ROF and upping damage (so DPS stays the same) would also help the issue a bit. Yet another way: reduce size of rockets. - short range due to how rocket is fired from ship (in front of) and due to rocket being "dumb" and not following target for around a second after a launch (which is around 1/3 of its total flight time = loses 1/3 of its range before it even starts to track target) - inability to hit non-webbed MWD frigs due to low velocity (3-4km/s wheras heavy missiles/cruises get upwards to 8km/s... its funny when heavy missile can catch up to ceptor and frig vs frig weapon cant) - "missile agility" issue. Old test of mine: rockets change dirtection (while following target) each second. This means that target which turns fast will not be hit at all (they have like 2 direction changes and are gone). Tested on close range orbit ceptor (think he was 500m orbit, landed at 3,5km from me doing around 2km/s) - with skills 5/5/dictors 4 (heretic, thus additional 40% to rocket velocity) he was hit 3 times out of around 100 rockets fired. - fitting issues of t2 rocket launchers on some ships. Example: heretic. Fitting 6 rocket launchers eats most of CPU ship has to offer. Any decent anti-frig setup (similiar to sabre: extender, web, damage mod, bubble blower, guns/rockets) will hit the CPU wall (and grid wall soon after) wheras sabre or catcher has no big issues fitting it all.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:43:00 - [103] Originally by: King Dave Guys i wouldn't argue with Deva, he is ret4rded. <3 deva Petitioned !!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111 And well... free bump i guess ;p
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.08.13 13:43:00 - [104] Originally by: Darth Felin Originally by: Krennel Darius Originally by: yani dumyat This thread seems to have gone all bumpy, did we just run something over? Yeah, I was hoping we ran over a rocket fix. Guess not though. don't worry we will have space combat expansion and it will be included there of course. It is scheduled for late autumn 2011 but it will . Heh young ones. So innocent and naive :P
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.08.27 20:28:00 - [105] Originally by: deathkiller95 Quote: Rocket Launcher II A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system. Must be loaded with rockets: Foxfire, Gremlin, Phalanx, Thorn as well as Javelin and Rage variants. They're NOT MEANT to be on-par with the other weapons. They're only meant to add a little bit of extra DPS for a Rifter or something. You are an idiot / clueless / troll (or all of the above). Ill let others explain why, if they care.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.08.27 20:56:00 - [106] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 27/08/2010 20:57:10 Originally by: deathkiller95 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: deathkiller95 Quote: Rocket Launcher II A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system. Must be loaded with rockets: Foxfire, Gremlin, Phalanx, Thorn as well as Javelin and Rage variants. They're NOT MEANT to be on-par with the other weapons. They're only meant to add a little bit of extra DPS for a Rifter or something. You are an idiot / clueless / troll (or all of the above). Ill let others explain why, if they care. Ah, so you think you know better than CCP do you? I know whose judment I trust more! They already acknowledged the issues. So i guess i know better. EDIT: and to answer my guess from [995]. All 3 at once.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.09 23:50:00 - [107] Originally by: Illrean Can an unbonused rocket even make it down the length of the Leviathan from Bow to Stern? Might get better results ramming you target me thinks - "Use force, Luke!" - "Right on, my rockets went straight into the vent, BOOM... ohcrap. They ran out of fuel before hitting reactor. We are soooooo dead."
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:08:00 - [108] [1027] Well said. Id love if CCP could get just few people (it doesnt really need full team, just few dudes) to play some balance changes game. Im really surprised that tweaking some stuff say by 5% up or down takes years. If it was up to me id tweak it by 5% in the patch and see what happens. Both test server will bring enough data fast (OMG what did you do, overpowered!!!) and even if it doesnt - TQ will. And you can then easily rever the change in hotfix (i doubt changing one number to pre-patch would be hard) or balance in further patch. Small steps but they would be more visible than one "soon to be" fix which happens after 5 years. Back to rockets, waiting for them to hit Sisi so we can discuss them further.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.11 15:10:00 - [109] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Originally by: Deva Blackfire Back to rockets, waiting for them to hit Sisi so we can discuss them further. Just wanted to point out this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1382088&page=2#55 Although it'll take much more time than fixing rockets, when they DO change the way missile works it should also alleviate the issues with the rocket range being chewed by the launch vector. This one is interesting. Missile system was one of most borked things in game and i guess it adds to lag too (missiles being physical objects that can be interacted with = lots of stress on server). I do wonder what direction CCP wants to take with it (id prefer my idea of just removing physical object and leaving rockets only as animation, with all calcs being done at the moment of firing). Also you stole post number 1000 :P [1033] Rockets were broken for 2+ years now, starting with nano nerf. Before nano nerf they werent best weapon out there but they did work (mostly thanks to 90% webs).
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.12 15:26:00 - [110] Srsly, go away... only thing in this thread what should die is your posting. Quote: tbh, I've never really noticed any issues with rockets. Admittedly, I've only ever put them on a Hawk, and never used them against anything particularly fast. But with 4 launchers it chews through frigs like nothing else I've ever flown. The high RoF of the launchers seems to more than make up for the lack of raw damage. And you should try well... any interceptor out there. Sader/Taranis - you will "chew" thru other ships much faster. Or any other AF than hawk (im not sure if there is any other weaker damage dealer AF than hawk in game... maybe vengeance, tho it can equip guns). And dont forget faction frigs. And kestrel. And rifter. And incursus. Guess you just need to fly something ELSE than hawk and you will actually find that most ships can kill frigs faster than it.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.13 19:02:00 - [111] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 13/09/2010 19:03:29 Originally by: Proxyyyy your idiots. No, you're. Really. And get out. Rest of your post just shows how stupid and ignorant you are and that you DID NOT read this thread at all. So STFU before you make even bigger fool of yourself than you already are.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.13 22:40:00 - [112] Considering PROPERLY flown kestrel obliterates most other frigs except AB tanking ones? Sure i would. And yeh, that kestrel will omgwtfkill incursus, vigil or tristan. Not 100% sure about punisher (as gatlings can reach quite far), but AC punisher is killable. Also sure i would fly malediction over any other ceptor if it actually could damage AB ceptors. Same goes for Heretic vs Sabre. Duhhh dun. Also you can check post [962] for full list of rocket issues. No its not only explo velocity. Ill just copy it for you: Quote: List of issues with rockets (complete i think): - inability to deal decent damage to small targets (especially ABing frigs) without using 1+ (2+ for Ab ships) webs or multiple painters which is impossible to put on one frig --> explo velocity and DamageReductionFactor issue - low damage (DPS) values. Bonused rocket launchers (+25% damage) are outclassed even by lowest tier autocannons and lasers - small clip capacity. Increase it to 80 (?) as rockets already lose circa 10% dps from reloads alone. Reducing ROF and upping damage (so DPS stays the same) would also help the issue a bit. Yet another way: reduce size of rockets. - short range due to how rocket is fired from ship (in front of) and due to rocket being "dumb" and not following target for around a second after a launch (which is around 1/3 of its total flight time = loses 1/3 of its range before it even starts to track target) - inability to hit non-webbed MWD frigs due to low velocity (3-4km/s wheras heavy missiles/cruises get upwards to 8km/s... its funny when heavy missile can catch up to ceptor and frig vs frig weapon cant) - "missile agility" issue. Old test of mine: rockets change dirtection (while following target) each second. This means that target which turns fast will not be hit at all (they have like 2 direction changes and are gone). Tested on close range orbit ceptor (think he was 500m orbit, landed at 3,5km from me doing around 2km/s) - with skills 5/5/dictors 4 (heretic, thus additional 40% to rocket velocity) he was hit 3 times out of around 100 rockets fired. - fitting issues of t2 rocket launchers on some ships. Example: heretic. Fitting 6 rocket launchers eats most of CPU ship has to offer. Any decent anti-frig setup (similiar to sabre: extender, web, damage mod, bubble blower, guns/rockets) will hit the CPU wall (and grid wall soon after) wheras sabre or catcher has no big issues fitting it all. As you can see damage AND fitting issues were ALSO taken into an account. We are quite smart kids here and after flying ship (say me in heretic) for circa... 4 years now? (pretty much since it was added to game) or malediction since rocket changes im quite good with spotting the issues that go beyond usual "need moar dps" problem. But the fact is: with ONLY explo velocity (aka: hits faster targets better) change it would mean i could at least use heretic again and kill normal non-ab ceptors and not die in hilarious way to taranises or saders (yay 3 mids = mwd + point + web, loltank anyone?).
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.14 01:03:00 - [113] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/09/2010 01:06:07 Im done talking with you. You are just a troll, so i CBA to waste my time on you. Do some (in your case a lot) research, then perhaps come back. But id prefer if you kept your posting to CAOD or other well informed places. EOT from my side. Also just a small hint: if 5 people tell you that you are clueless its very possible they are right and you arent. In this case its sure you arent the one who is correct.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.14 16:28:00 - [114] Originally by: Zach Donnell CCP, any better idea when we will see some rocket changes on the test server? I am excited :) Originally by: CCP Chronotis another week or so and we'll look to hotdrop some changes onto sisi for you if we get green light as it is being used for lag fix testing right now. Posted 09.07. So i guess "soon".
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.14 18:57:00 - [115] God complex, tourette syndrome, down syndrome, all in one person. You should get yourself checked, you might become some medicine miracle. Also ****ting on the thread you dont like belongs to CAOD not here. But anyways thanks for admitting for thing i stated at the start: you were just trolling "to get thread closed". FYI: this thread will not die so buh bye. As for "i dont care what other people post". Oh you do. A lot. Posting is caring and it seems you care a lot.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.14 19:44:00 - [116] Funnily enough adding 1 mid to ALL rocket boats would prolly fix most of the velocity issues (dualweb) but i dont see this as proper balancing/fixing of an issue. It would fix rockets but possibly make even nastier non-rocket-using-rocket-ships setups (4 mid vengeance? think of possibilities if you run with ACs, same for other boats). Fixing rocket themselves is good step, which should be followed by further rebalancing of ships themselves. AFs (well they waited for too long anyways), tier system, prolly some CPu/grid shifts. But its nothing that wasnt said in this topic before. I think we already managed to cover every aspect of "how to make rocket boats better" approach. Now, we just need to wait to see what lands on Sisi and then we can talk about balancing boats against each other.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.17 20:07:00 - [117] Originally by: Gypsio III Can Proxy make his posts any less readable? I fear so. You try to read them? Its not like he will add anything valuable or not known already to this thread. v0v /still waiting for changes to hit sisi
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.20 20:22:00 - [118] I just hope that ammo changes also cover rage and javelin roflkets :)
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.21 01:38:00 - [119] Well 26th IF rockets make it to sisi this week :) If ya want i guess i can spare 100m on TQ or something v0v.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.21 17:11:00 - [120] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/09/2010 17:14:47 As far as i remember crow IS a combat interceptor - and probably one of worst of them. Crusader/Taranis eats it alive, claw is kinda worse but still decent. Crow is behind the flock. With rocket boost it should still die to crusaders and rail ranises but will have decent chances against blaster ranis. Dunno about claw, i dont fly them (my small AC "skill" comes solely from sabre piloting). The only rocket ship i would be worried about is kestrel as it is kinda nasty already.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2010.09.22 17:07:00 - [121] @proxyyyy waah waah oh look, special kid came back from asylum with words of wisdom. Shame such great pilot with setups for every ship in this game doesnt even know how to fly caldari boats. Seems you are quite bad pilot then. Go learn more about ships before you comment here Back to ignoring your diarrhea of words. @OT Smithers And what exactly is wrong with caldari ships? I use them on my alt (as she can fly ONLY caldari ships of missile flavour) and had great success with them. Onyx? HIC as any other. Raven? Quite efficient damage dealer in shield gangs. Drake - duh, best BC in game. Tengu? Second only to Proteus tho has tad better damage dealing capability (range/damage types). Flycatcher - prolly second best dictor after sabre (a bit slower than heretic but due to amount of mids it can fit quite a few duelling/ceptor killing setups). Rook/Falcon - i guess nothing to add here. Kitsune - quite fun ship imo, works in its role well. Cerb - best long range HAC ingame, nuff said. T1 ones which Duchess pointed out are also ok (at least missile ones, never used hybrid ones as i dont have skills on alt). Ofc if you use caldari ship in a wrong role then it sucks. Most of caldari ships are kinda stuck to one or two roles and cant be used on every ocassion.

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